Once again, a excellent post by Rock hound!!! We love you too!! And are so... VERY greatful to finally see the TRUTH as hard as it is/was to accept!
L.L
Lady Liberty
JoinedPosts by Lady Liberty
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5
"This thing called Love"
by rockhound in"this thing called love" has surely proven to be an elusive thing, to put your finger on.
in an organization who "equates disagreement with disloyalty" it seems that almost every one in the congregation down deep is harboring something that they disagree with about the organization, but they know better than to let anyone know, except their closest friends, and even then their words are well chosen and spoken in guarded terms.
"please don't repeat what i just said to anybody" is the usual caution.
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61
Why shouldn't I be a JW?
by AirDuster inhi, i am brand new to these forums.
i have been reading some stuff for a while from here and other websites.
i feels totally crazy being a member now.
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Lady Liberty
P.S. Just the other day I made a post from a IMAX program on Cable about the Solarsystem. They made the comment regarding the astronomical data recorded by the Babylonians are so accurate that they use those records today, to correct computer programs!! So, with that in mind, how could they possibly be 20 years off?? Thought that point went well with what I just posted above.
Sincerely,
L.L.
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61
Why shouldn't I be a JW?
by AirDuster inhi, i am brand new to these forums.
i have been reading some stuff for a while from here and other websites.
i feels totally crazy being a member now.
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Lady Liberty
Welcome to the board,
I appreciate your sincere desire to find the FACTS. That is infact a sign of a TRUE TRUTHSEEKER! Thought you may benefit from a portion of a letter I wrote to my family explaining the CRUCIAL 607 issue. For with out this as a foundation, everything else crumbles. PLEASE examine this and double check the literature to make sure what I have posted is accurate.
Sincerely,
L.L.
(Here is a portion of my letter...)
You have asked me to show you from the Bible without any outside references. Unfortunately, you cannot prove 607, 586/587, or any other date without using secular history!
So.. You have to be willing to acknowledge that using archeological evidence IS acceptable. After all, the society uses it! For example, the society agrees with the Absolute date of 539 B.C. as being the date when Babylon fell. Please see reference: si pp. 335-336 paragraph 12, 14, 15. Daniel 5:30,31. Now, we should both be in agreement, right?? (There is far more evidence for 586/587 than there is even for 539.)
O.K. Now, I am sure you will agree also, that there are no dates given in the Bible. However, what IS given is the length of reign of the kings. So.. Start backwards using 539 B.C. I sent this to you in my e-mail before, but it was at the end, and I am wondering if you didn’t see it. So, I will write it out again.
539 - Babylon’s fall
17 - years Nabonidus reign
1 - just under a year Labashi-Marduk
4 - years Neriglissar 2 - years Evil-Merodiach 43 - years Nebuchadnezzar
606 B.C. -19 years (Jerusalem destroyed in Nebuchadnezzar’s 18 th /19 th year)
________
587 B.C. for the year that Jerusalem was destroyed.
The society supports ALL of these lengths of reigns, as I am about to give you references. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, the BIBLE supports the length of reigns. Please look up the references to see I have my facts straight.
NEBUCHADNEZZAR- 43 Years
Watchtower 2000 5/15 pg. 12 Pay Attention To God’s Prophetic Word of Our Day ,"During his 43- year reign…."
Watchtower 1986 11/1 pg. 5 A Dream Reveals How Late It Is, "Since Nebuchadnezzar reigned for 43 years……
Pay Attention To Daniel’s Prophecy Chapter 7 pg. 99 Four Words That Changed the World, "King Nebuchadnezzar’s 43- year reign ….."
Pay Attention To Daniel’s Prophecy 4 pg. 50-61 The Rise and Fall of An Immense Image, " Nebuchadnezzar, who reigned for 43 years…."
Insight book 1 pg. 238-239 Babylon, "Finally, after a 43 year reign,…."
EVIL-MERODACH-2 YEARS
Watchtower 1965 1/1 pg. The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short Lived, "Evil-Merodach reigned two years.."
Insight 1 pg. 453 Chronology, "(Evil-Merodach, 2 Kings 25:27, 28), tablets dated up to his second year rule have been found."
Kingdom Come pg. 186 Appendix to Chapter 14, (acknowledges that both the Nabonidus Harran Stele and the Ptolemy’s Canon show Evil-Merdach ruling just 2 years.)
NERIGLISSAR- 4 YEARS
Watchtower 1965 1/1 pg. 29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked is Short Lived, "….murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who reigned for four years,…."
LABASHI-MARDUK- LESS THAN A YEAR
Watchtower 1965 1/1 pg. 29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked is Short Lived, "…son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months."
NABONIDUS- 17 YEARS
Insight 2 pg. 457 Nabonidus , "…is believed to have ruled for some 17 years (556-539 B.C.E.)
Watchtower 1968 8/15 pg. 491 The Book of Truthful Historical Dates, "Nabunaid (Nabonidus) shared the kingship with his own oldest son Belshazzar……the seventeenth year of King Nabunaid, Babylon fell to Cyrus the Persian."
There are the references I have found, from the society, that confirm the length of reigns of the kings listed in the Bible. Now put it all together:
Babylon falls to Cyrus the Persia-539 B.C.
Nabonidus-17 years
Labashi-Marduk-less than nine months
Neriglissar-4 years
Evil-Merodach-2 years
Nebuchadnezzar- 43 years
Nabonidus-17 years
Year 17 = 539 B.C.E.
16 = 540
15 = 541
14 = 542
13 = 543
12 = 544
11 = 545
10 = 546
9 = 547
8 = 548
7 = 549
6 =550
5 = 551
4 = 552
3 = 553
2 = 554
1 = 555
0 = accession year
Labashi-Marduk- less than a year
3 months in 556
Neriglissar- 4 years
4 = 556
3 = 557
2 = 558
1 = 559
0 = accession year = 560
Evil-Merodach- 2 years
2 = 560
1 = 561
0 = accession year = 562
Nebuchadnezzar- 43 years
43 = 562 B.C.E.
42 = 563
41 = 564
40 = 565
39 = 566
38 = 567
37 = 568
36 = 569
35 = 570
34 = 571
33 = 572
32 = 573
31 = 574
30 = 575
29 = 576
28 = 577
27 = 578
26 = 579
25 = 580
24 = 581
23 = 582
22 = 583
21 = 584
20 = 585
19 = 586 B.C.E.
18 = 587 B.C.E.
There you have it. You said you didn’t understand my math. Using the BIBLE, you do the math. You see, as I stated in my last letter to you, we DID analyze the Kingdom Come Appendix, extensively! What you are doing is simply going back 70 years from 539 to get to 607. Seems all very neat and simple. Except one VERY important fact. If you are using that math, it discredits our standard, Gods word! As I stated earlier, the bible only gives kings reigns and length of those reigns. Using that data, from the BIBLE, go backwards. You will see the dilemma.
So.. How does the 70 years fit in?? It does!! It HAS to! The first thing I did, was to read the ENTIRE account. Not just a few passages here and there. Read what was really going on there. Read the context of the scriptures. It tells not of only Judah’s fate, but the surrounding nations as well. Jeremiah 25:8 –26.
If you read through verse 26 it shows 24 other kings that were to taste the cup of Jehovah’s rage. There were three things predicted in Jeremiah’s prophecy.
- The land of Judah would become a "devastated place" although no time limit is put upon this.
- These nations would have to serve the King of Babylon for 70 years.
- When the seventy years has been fulfilled, then Jehovah would call to account the king of Babylon.
The Bible says that Judah was going to be devastated and ravaged by an enemy army. The time period is not stated. The time period of seventy years applies to the Babylonian reign, as verse 26 shows it applying to all the other kings as well. If we are to believe that the 70 years is 70 years of complete desolation without any inhabitant only for Judah, then this is in direct conflict with the prophecy. The servitude does not mean exile and desolation, it means subjection or servitude. Please read Jeremiah 27: 8 and 11. These scriptures are telling the nations to serve the King of Babylon. So, to "serve" the Kingdom of Babylon, and be a subject kingdom to them they would be rewarded for obeying and could therefore stay in their land. Verse 12 shows a direct command from Jehovah to Zedekiah to serve the King of Babylon, if they did not, he was going to punish them. And the same was for any king that did not obey; they would taste the cup of Jehovah’s anger.
Please also read Jeremiah 42. It tells of the Jews left in the land of Judah. They were to cultivate the land and stay in submission to the King of Babylon. The nations that accepted Babylonian "yoke" would serve the King of Babylon seventy years as subject kingdoms. The nations that refused would become devastated. It could not have meant seventy years of being uninhabited, as Jehovah in chapter 42 tells the remnant to stay.
O.K. The Kingdom Come book says that though Berossus claims that "….Nebuchadnezzar took Jewish captives in his accession year, there are no cuneiform documents supporting this." But the BIBLE itself backs these deportations up. Please read, Daniel 1:1-2. The first verse says that in the third year of Jehoiakim (See Jer. 25:1) Nebuchadnezzar took tribute from Judah which included Jehovah’s utensils from the temple and "some of the sons of Isreal and of the Royal offspring and of the nobles".
So.. this clearly points to a beginning of "servitude"early in the reign of Jehoiakim. Please read, Daniel 2:1. Daniel was interpreting the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar, in his second year reigning. He was one of those deported, and an eyewitness to these events.
There are so.. many other proofs that support the bible. One huge one is the Egyptian chronology. Babylon & Egypt were direct enemies. If you look at archeology, you will find the list of Pharaohs.
Their chronology runs perfectly with Babylon’s. Even though they hated each other. They still recorded their wars. One very famous one was the battle of Carchemish. There certainly was no conspiracy between them to alter the date of their battle, in 605 B.C.E. What is VERY interesting is that the very 20 years that is in question, causes another key date in history to be altered. Placing the battle of Carchemish at 625 B.C.E.
Note: pg. 46 of the Daniel book even states "….he had effectively (Nebuchadnezzar) became ruler in 607 B.C.E.", then on pg 63 it says, " Nebuchadnezzer thus accended the throne of Babylon in the year 624 B.C.E." How do you explain that??
You see, we MUST use the BIBLE as our standard. The bible is in perfect harmony with 586/587. All the archeological artifacts that do give dates ARE in HARMONY with the bible. They uphold and confirm biblical statements. Not to mention all the lunar eclipses that have been recorded by the Babylonians that have been confirmed by science. Confirming dates with astronomical calculations based on lunar eclipses, are so accurate that they are off only by minutes. Also, thousands of business tablets, etc. that record simple business transactions, stating the year of the Babylonian king when the transaction occurred. Tablets like this, have been found for all the years of the reign for the kings of Babylon. It would be pretty hard to alter all of those tablets, even if you could unearth them all. Its not like they had whitout! There is just far too much evidence to be ignored. But again, I emphasize that if the date 586/587 conflicted with the bible, I would never accept those dates. Because the bible is and will ALWAYS be our standard. The Kingdom Come Appendix states, "Or, even if the discovered evidence is accurate, it might be misinterpreted by modern scholars or be incomplete so that yet undiscovered material could drastically alter the chronology of the period." You have to admit that a chronology that has to be based on "yet undiscovered material", because it is demolished by the discovered material, is resting on a weak foundation.
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I said too much
by vitty ini was having a good conversation with my mum, and then............... id said too much.. she had been telling me she didnt ant to go to the hall, for a number of reasons, and when i started critisizing the borg she went all haughty and started telling me i should be going!!!!!!!!!.
the usual, its so near the end, its the only truth............blah blah.
its 3.30am here and i cant sleep, i just want everyone to know i dont go anymore but i cant.
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Lady Liberty
Dear Vitty,
Hang in there! Seems like she has issues of her own. Whenever, one feels like a direct attack is being made on the organization, they feels like it is a attack upon Jehovah. And the wall goes up. We were programmed you cannot love one without the other. When it is a atack on the friends, for some reason thats not as threatening. So maybe by letting her express herself by just listening, will in time open up a avenue for more connversation and maybe a listening ear on her part.
Sincerely,
L.L.
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So far
by KW13 ini mentioned it partly in another thread.
thought i'd give it a proper topic .
my mum was on calls today with a friend.
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Lady Liberty
Dear KW13,
Rockound did a great thread on this a couple of days ago. It may help you. It is on page 5263 entitled, " What's all the fuss about 607 & 1914.?" If you haven't read it, do. If you keep them to the whole 607 issue you most likely will help them open "pandoras box"! I know it has for me and MANY others!! Just a thought. Our prayers are with you!
Sincerly,
L.L.
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Im so sick (literally) of morning sickness\all day sickness
by Es inhey guys.
sorry i just felt like sooking....my morning sickness which lasts all day is getting worse, ive been vomitting now for 7 weeks, i cant seem to keep anything down.. i know i should be grateful that im pregnant and i am, i am just finding it really hard to deal with the sickness this time round, i have tried vitamin b6 but does nothing for me.
with my son this lasted bout 5 months.. es
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Lady Liberty
Hello Es,
I too hated the sick ALL day feeling!! Try dried papaya, or papaya tablets. It helped me settle my sensative stomach.
L.L.
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45
Ever have a part on a convention or assembly?
by Frog ini played a role in a convention drama when i was 14. it was a really poxy modern day drama.
something about catching my bigger brother puffing on a cigarette lol.
i had to practice the part for months in a dogey american accents.
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Lady Liberty
Yes!
I gave the experience of informally witnessing. It was a great little experience. I ended up going through the entire Knowledge Book with her and she began attending meetings, as well as assemblies, occasionally. Funny thing is she never progressed to the point of baptism. I never knew why. Something was holding her back. At times in was quite depressing!! I had put my heart and soul into her trying to reach her "heart". Well, in time we lost touch. In time I began to question things, and eventually, I began my journey out. About a month ago, after a year of indepth study, and coming to the hard core truth about MANY things, I decided to call her. We got together for lunch and I shared with her what I had been up to for the last year. Needless to say she was speechless!!! I told her about all the things I had dicovered were not true. And many of them were of things I had taught as FACT to her. Needless to say it was emotional, because I felt so foolish. But I felt it nescessary for her to know the "truth" regardless of how stupid I felt. She was so VERY accepting. For that I am truely greatful! Turns out she said she never knew why it was she could'nt bring herself to baptism. She would pray and pray about it, but could not bring herself to do it. Now that I look back, I realize it was MY heart that needed to be reached!
L.L.
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Inquisition scheduled for tonight
by greater_freedom ini need some input on how to proceed with a scheduled meeting with elders i haven't seen in 18mo.
i have not attended a meeting in over 2yrs.
they sent a letter requesting my presents at 8:00 pm tonight.
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Lady Liberty
P.S.
I agree with others here!! GET IT RECORDED!!! Best Buy has a great little pocket recorder that works awesome! It doesn't take a tape, and has like 7 hours on it. I believe you can somehow even transfer it onto your computer. Let me tell you it works well!!! it is smaller thatn your typical size cell phone. Keep us posted wether or not you go.
L.L.
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Inquisition scheduled for tonight
by greater_freedom ini need some input on how to proceed with a scheduled meeting with elders i haven't seen in 18mo.
i have not attended a meeting in over 2yrs.
they sent a letter requesting my presents at 8:00 pm tonight.
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Lady Liberty
Dear greater_freedom,We are so happy to have you here! And we are so sorry for the tragic loss of your son, and the pain your other son has had to endure. As a parent myself I cannot imagine the suffering you have had to bear. It is beyond my comprehension how these so called shepherds have the galdasity to want to meet after all this time. Where was that shelter, that craig fom the storm that they are supposed to be in times of distress? Especially for someone like you and your family. Its awefully strange that suddenly they want to meet. My mother told me of a experience in California that came first hand to her from a sister in the hall that said that one of the elders decided they should call all inactive ones ever on file, and disfellowship any who are no longer attending. They were disfellowshiping ones that had been inactive for 10 years or even longer! There might be some sort of new policy, that if you aren't going then you will get the axe. Especially now that they aren't announcing, "So & so has been disfellowshipped". Rather they are saying," So & so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses". They still give a talk after the announcement so that everyone will know why the person got the axe. Personally, my husband and I are expecting that same kind of letter for a meeting to get rid of us as well. Hang in there, you have found a great place to recieve encouragement and friendship! Again, were glad you're here!
Sincerely,
L.L.
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where do I start..here goes!!
by blsrose inhello, my name is bonnie, i will start by how i came "into the truth".
my husband and i lived in dallas, tex in '72, of course we were not married at the time of our being contacted by a work friend of his, though they still befriended us and our families became close.
soon, we were married and quickly thereafter, we were invited to the kingdom hall.
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Lady Liberty
Dear Blsrose,
Thank you so.... much for sharing your story!! It really touched my heart, what you and your children must have gone though, then to be treated like that by those who were supposed to be your "Shelter"!! It's just so sad! Well, you are among friends here. We warmly welcome you, and look forward to hearing more of your post.
Sincerely,
L.L.